Managing Through COVID-19 Crisis: Fair Hiring During JobMaker to Avoid Discrimination

Published November 23, 2020 Views: 11


In today’s session of Friday’s With Ed, topics covered included Fair hiring during JobMaker to avoid discrimination, IR reform, practical tips on HR and employee management, business crisis planning, and leadership and management.


  • Managing Through COVID-19 Crisis: Fair Hiring During JobMaker to Avoid Discrimination

    Welcome. I hope that everyone is well. A little bit to catch up on today. I’m gonna start off with our usual why. And I’ll explain why in a moment. And then we’re gonna go through a few updates both in Australia and in New Zealand relating to workplace relations.

    So our why is principally, as I’ve said before, to provide you guys with a resource to keep up to date with workplace relations issues, both through the crisis and beyond. We are here as long as we are helpful to you. So it’s more and more the diehards that are watching it now. I think we’ve all moved out of crisis mode, and we’re into a longer term routine of how we’re performing.

    That doesn’t mean, though, that workplace relations issues have disappeared. Quite the opposite, actually. I think that there’s gonna be an increase in workplace relations issues that you’re gonna have to grapple with over the coming months. So here we are to help, if we can. And that also helps me in that it provides me with a good reason to stay on top of everything that’s going on and a chance to connect to other business owners and people that are going through the challenges that I’m also going through myself at the moment. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that at the end as well.

    So what are we gonna talk about today? So some updates for you. I’m gonna talk a little bit about minimum wage increases this time next week. You’ve got seven days until that might be occurring for you in your award. I’m gonna talk a little bit about Aged Care whilst we’re talking about wage increases and what’s going on in the Aged Care world and whether there may be a wage increase there. Also, contractors. We spoke briefly about this last week. There’s some more news about Deliveroo riders and so forth. And contractors may be relevant to you, and I just wanna give you an indication where I think things are going in that regard.

    And then, finally, before we go on to the HR-y leadership stuff, health and safety in WA, we’re gonna talk about, and then New Zealand updates as well. Auckland had a couple of cases that came out last night, and we’re just waiting, actually. Probably as we speak, they’re updating as to whether they’re gonna go into some other form of lockdown again, so we’re keeping an eye on that for any New Zealand businesses watching. And as Mary points out, it is Friday the 13th, a very spooky day for us all, but let’s hope that this isn’t a spooky session.

    Right. Minimum wage awards. So as you will hopefully be aware of, this relates to your industry. Certain awards have had a clarification as to what happens to casuals and overtime, which is resulting in some pay rate changes that take place on November the 20th. What I would urge you all to do is, if you’re a client of ours, give us a call, ask if this applies to you.

    Either way, you can go onto our website, and you can get a minimum wage increase document there, e-guide there, that you can download, and it will give you a clear idea as to which awards are impacted, what the rates of increase in pay are, and when and how to introduce those changes. So please do go and have a look there. That’s free. Even if you’re not a client, go and have a look and download that. We’ll put up the link on here as well so you can get it. We’re only a week away from this, guys. So if you are at risk of having pay rate changes, make sure you get on top of it.

    There was an interesting article yesterday in the press. I think Woolworths had their annual general meeting. And the chairman of Woolworths said, look, he takes responsibility for the underpayments that occurred. And it turned out to be very sizeable, we had about $500 million at latest count. But he did flag that, he said, “Look, as we’ve been saying all along, if Woolworths can’t get it right, there must be a problem with the system as well.” And this is exactly the kind of slip, trip, banana skin that could catch out the unsuspecting employer, so please do go and have a look.

    Right. Next to that, I saw an article in the media yesterday about Aged Care, which has had a submission to the Fair Work Commission to following on from the Aged Care inquiry that’s gone on. There’s been a suggestion that there may be an increase in pay under their award.

    The HSU, the relevant union, is seeking a $5 pay increase for carers, flagging that the inquiry basically said, “Look, it’s very hard to get talent to work in the industry, and perhaps increasing pay might reduce some of the problems that they’ve seen in that industry.” So that isn’t a change yet. It’s an application that’s being made. Watch this space if you work in the Aged Care industry at all, although I’m sure you are watching it already.

    Contractors. So we talked last week about the fact that what has happened in California, and you might say that’s not got much to do with me, but I think it’s always important if your business model relies on people being contractors, not employees, to consider what’s going on at the world at large in issues like this.

    So I met a guy this week who runs a really interesting business in the NDIS space, where he’s providing carers to disabled people and the NDIS scheme. And typically, those carers are provided, in his relationship with them, on a contractor basis. But there are issues as to whether they are contractors or not. And cases like the one, or the legislation that went through in California last week that we briefly talked about on here may well end up being relevant to his business model, so it’s important to look out for these.

    But what we saw in California last week, as I explained, was almost a class of contractor that is closer to an employee has been established. So it was the result of some of these big tech companies like Uber campaigning pretty hard to avoid their drivers becoming seen as employees because of all the associated costs that go with that. And they were pushing hard for them to maintain their contractor status, but with some additional protections in there with regard to insurance and other things to ensure that where there might be vulnerable workers, that they weren’t being taken advantage of.

    So there’s quite a lot of noise in the media this week following that, saying, “Well, what about people like food delivery drivers in Australia? They seem to be vulnerable workers.” Quite often, immigrant workers, international students that have little optionality, often they’ve been caught here during the COVID crisis and have no form of income and so are vulnerable to things like exploitation.

    And there seems to be a meshing of problems there. The issues really are, are people receiving wages below the minimum wage just by tweaking and pretending they’re something other than an employee? And then, second of all, there’s the safety issues that relate to that. So what we would say at Employsure is that there is a fairness issue. Are people being treated fairly in accordance with minimum wage, which is the very starting point for fairness? And second of all, are they being treated safely? So it’s a fairness issue and a safety issue.

    And there’s no movement on this in Australia at this stage, but watch this space because I think, increasingly, as this gig economy continues to grow, and you have the competing strains of people wanting to work with greater flexibility in companies, seeing business opportunity in having a workforce that has greater flexibility versus the minimum protections that are needed to ensure fairness and safety.

    And right now all it is a hot topic in Australia. It seems to be, given the California move, less likelihood that we’re gonna move to a situation where delivery drivers, Uber drivers, and so forth are ending up being considered to be employees, but it may be that we find this middle ground in Australia where they get some protections to prevent them being taken under the bar on fairness and safety. So watch this space. It’s a hot topic and will continue to be so.

    It’s a classic topic, to be honest. It was a hot topic before the crisis. The crisis came, and it kind of subdued it, just as underpayment of wages. And you remember there was a lot of talk about wage theft, a phrase I hate, as it applies to businesses, this idea that businesses were, in some way, they’re trying to steal money from their staff by underpaying them. I think you’ll see those things bubble to the surface again now that the crisis seems to be getting relatively well managed in our region. And we’re all moving back to what we might term a new normal way of operation.

    Those problems haven’t gone away. We’ve just been preoccupied with crisis. And I think what you’ll see is that those problems start coming back into the narrative again and start being a concern more and more for your businesses, things like contractor status, underpayment of wages, and so forth.

    So that was a little bit on contract workers. There was a bit of noise this week about JobMaker, which got passed into law this week. There was a bit of toing and froing in government about that in that there was some debate as to whether extra protections were needed with JobMaker to prevent people getting sacked in order to be replaced with people who were getting a wage subsidy, which employers would therefore get.

    And Josh Frydenberg made the point very well, which was that the existence of JobMaker doesn’t mean you can start sacking people in order to re-hire people that do get JobMaker qualifications to help you with your wage bill. The Fair Work Act and all the laws relating to unfair dismissal and discrimination and general protections all still apply to all of your staff. There’s no green light to get rid of people in order to get people on board who are subsidized.

    So if anyone is thinking that, and I’ve said, you know, I know from the audience who watches this, seem a lot more knowledgeable in that that anyone would be rushing out to sack people to bring on JobMaker eligible people. I think it seems reasonably obvious that that could result in things like unfair dismissals. So do take care in that regard. And if you’ve got any questions about that, we’ll see if we can answer them today.

    So a little bit of JobMaker. WA Health and Safety was passed into law this week. The WA Work Health and Safety Bill passed into law this week. It won’t actually come into effect until next year when the regulations are published. But basically, what it does is, after far too long, brings WA on to the same health and safety footing as the rest of the national framework. And includes in it, for example, an industrial manslaughter law, which means that people can be fined and imprisoned indeed for industrial manslaughter if that occurs in their workplaces.

    So for those businesses in WA, it only really enhances the need to ensure that you are providing that fair but also safe workspace to your staff. And watch this space. We’ll be communicating to our clients in WA about the need to ensure that you’re keeping your safety systems up to scratch, and what this law means to you.

    Finally, then, before we go on to HR and leadership stuff. So just quickly checking, has New Zealand announced anything about what’s going on there. So they had I think three cases overnight. Yeah, it looks as though they’re not gonna go into some form of lockdown, which is really quite pleasing. I was a bit worried. They had three cases overnight.

    We got a message as an employer in Auckland, for example, overnight that said, “If your staff…” bear in mind, New Zealand doesn’t have any social distancing or anything at the moment, they suddenly said to us at the end of the day yesterday, “If your staff can work from home, they must tomorrow.” I mean, that sort of stuff…I get why they’re doing it. The approach they’re taking there is to completely eradicate the virus. And they’ve had great success in it.

    But this idea that businesses can turn on a dime, we have 150 people in our office there, and the idea that, you know, you get a message at 5 p.m. saying, “No one should come into work tomorrow,” and you have the ability to function and operate the next day with a notice like that, it’s frustrating, to be honest. It’s frustrating because we ended up turning around to our staff and saying, “I’m sorry, we need you to come in because we don’t…you’re not set up to work from home in a number of your roles tomorrow. We can’t just yo-yo in and out of the office like that. It’s not a practical way of working.”

    And then you obviously have to deal with the HR issues, which is people start to worry about it. If the government is saying, “You should work from home,” but my employer is telling me to come in, what does that mean? All of these things that create problems for us. And we, like any other business, we trade on confidence and lack of friction and simplicity. And the more and more these things come into play, the more and more erratic the decision making, the more problematic it is for business. I think what we’re all craving at the moment is the consistency and clarity and concise messaging, those three Cs of messaging, so that we can build our confidence and move forward.

    You saw, frankly, just what a little dose, a little shot in the arm, forgive the pun, of news about a vaccination did to the financial markets this week, which all went through the roof as a result of people getting that sense of confidence back into the system. And we, at a micro level, as small business owners, need to have that confidence going forward. Confidence is obviously undermined by lots of short-term decision making. But it looks like New Zealand is fortunately taking a bit of a sensible approach up having told us all to go home for a day. It looks like they’re saying that we can carry on operating over there, which I’m pleased to see.

    So there’s some updates a little bit on the HR leadership stuff. Two insights. So I spoke last week about how, at Employsure, we are using the running metaphor that you find in Jim Collins’s book, “Good to Great,” where he says that…he uses the example of this high school running team that does very well and starts winning championships.

    What they seem to be doing differently is that they have stationed, one mile before the end of the race, they stationed someone to tell the runners that they’ve only got a mile to go. And then second to that, they measured the runners on how many people they passed between that marker and the end. And in doing that they created a KPI framework, essentially, that enabled people to really do their best work at the end of something, and really finish hard and finish strong.

    I think if you watch…this is me giving away my interest in rugby, if you watch the difference between the All Blacks rugby team and the Wallabies rugby team, for anyone that still watches rugby, maybe it’s just me, the All Blacks rugby team always finishes well. You watch them, they always look like they’ve got extra energy in the bank for that final 5 or 10 minutes. The Wallabies team, on the other hand, always looks like they’re flagging at that stage. And if they are winning, they’re just holding on by their fingernails. They don’t cross the finish line at pace.

    I’m trying to change the attitude of our business to make sure that we are now seeing that there is a finish line to this crisis and that we are running best at the end and we’re finishing strong in that regard. So I’ve now got a countdown with the team that I’m doing until Christmas. I think it’s 32 business days now until Christmas. And we’re focusing hard on everything we’re gonna achieve by then.

    And then the idea being that once we refresh and come back in the New Year, we’re in a new normal. We’re back to the way business used to be, to some degree, a new version of it no doubt with some updates and changes and always the lurking risk that this virus hasn’t disappeared. So it may reappear in some form or other. But we need to be able to deal with that and not constantly be in a crisis mindset because that’s exhausting. I think it ties your team to be constantly thinking in crisis as though they’re in a fight constantly, and we need to get out of that and into a more measured way of running the business and operating.

    So we’ve got this message of, I sign off a message to the team every night, which I’m now signing off by saying, “We run best at the end,” and reminding the team of that. I wanna count down to Christmas, really pushing hard to it. We will have these wobbles, like this one in New Zealand, but it doesn’t change the fact that we’re now really pushing hard into that final mile.

    So I’d encourage you to be looking at some form of similar messaging so that we can close a chapter. Christmas seems to work pretty well. We’re all pretty keen, I think, to close the chapter on 2020 and move on to a fresh mindset for 2021. And from a leadership perspective, I think that’s a really healthy thing for you to be doing in any business now to be saying, “Look, let’s collectively finish this crisis well.” Close that chapter and move on to the next one for next year.

    So those are the things that I’m focusing on in leadership at the moment. Another final thing, before we go onto some questions, I found it really interesting this week, actually. I sent out a message to our team through…you know, we have this platform called Workplace, which is a bit like Slack or something that we use to communicate with each other. You guys might have something similar. You might use WhatsApp. I don’t know what. You probably got some way of communicating through to all of your staff.

    And I just put up a post on there that… It was sort of experimental, to some degree. I put up a post saying that I’d had a crappy day on Tuesday, and I felt pretty flat. And I explained to the team how I pick myself back up out of those situations and get back to trying to lead with some drive and energy, which for me is I do, first of all, sort of do a quick scan on myself and say, “Am I sleeping all right? Am I exercising? How is my diet?”

    If all those three things are in check, I tend to be in reasonably good form. If all those three things are in check, and I’m still flat about something, the way in which I pick myself up out of that lull is to remind myself of my individual purpose, my why for myself, which is led by trying to look after and provide for my family.

    And then second to that, my business or work purpose, which is I’m constantly, I derive energy from trying to challenge a status quo from not accepting that Employsure is just another advisor doing things the way they’ve always been done but trying to change it up, trying to think of ways that we can help businesses better. And I normally find some energy in reminding myself what my purpose is. I explain that to the business. I say, “Look, I’d love to hear from you guys as to how you deal with it.”

    I was blown away by the amount of responses. I think there were over 100 responses from our team of people saying, “This is what I do.” And they were very thoughtful responses, very useful. I learned a lot from them. I’m only raising it now in the sense I think that there’s a really good lesson to be learned there in leadership, which is just a sense of vulnerability. I think people like hearing that from their leaders, and they like being able to engage in a vulnerable place without being judged.

    And I think there’s a great power in being able to do that as a leader. If you can show vulnerability and invite people to be vulnerable, you’ll end up breeding a positive culture in the business. It was just a really good example and insight of what happened to me this week, what I learned this week, and I thought you might be interested.

    So that’s it from me in terms of me waffling on. Just a couple of questions today. I’m just gonna go through these and see if I can answer them. So Kep says they saw one of our cars in Carindale in Brisbane this morning, Creek Rd., which is great to see. And then another one all the way down in Coogee/Clovelly. That’s what Deb says. So, Deb, that is very close to me. I’m just in Bronte. I can tell you it wasn’t me, though, driving the car this morning, but I do know there’s two or three of our team that live around Coogee/Clovelly.

    So, you know, just as an inside to this. So anyone that does spot the Employsure cars, we actually stole the idea for the cars from this real estate agency in the U.K. that did a really clever thing, I think, from a marketing perspective. They were kind of the first real estate agency to do the branded cars. And what they did really cleverly was that if you were a new employee, you’ve got a certain type of car. And then once you’d earned the right and you’d proven yourself in the business, you’ve got a slightly better car. And then there were sort of two or three layers of cars that you could get into.

    And we have a similar thing for our team in that when you first start with us, you start in a white car. So if you see any Employsure white cars, it means the person has been with us for less than two years, typically. And then when they get to what we call an ambassador level, when you’ve been with us for two years, and you’ve been performing at a certain level, you get a better car, which is one of the black ones, and it’s the slightly higher grade of car with more features and so on. And that’s part of the reward for being there for two years. So if you see any black cars, they’ve been around with us for longer.

    And then, finally, there is a category of car, which isn’t branded, so you wouldn’t see them around, for those who have been, even longer and typically performing been at even higher level, they can get into an unbranded version of the car. So we stole, with pride, that idea from this agency.

    The other thing that we took from that agency is that, and we hope to increase this with time, is that they used the cars, and they frequently updated them with different artwork and news. There were different ways that they thought about having a fresh version of the artwork each year. And we’ll start doing more of that. So each year they’ll change slightly.

    And we’ve found, actually, as Kep and Deb have pointed out, that it’s been a fantastic marketing tool for us. And so many people see the cars around. And it really gives a sense of the breadth and scope of who we’re helping. And of course the people are driving around in exactly the areas where our clients are, so it really provides a great opportunity to get our name out there.

    Tony is asking a question, an employee question, talking about cars. If you’ve got a car allowance, does that get affected if you’re on JobKeeper? So the wage condition in JobKeeper means that you’ve got to be paid your 1,500 bucks. I don’t believe that the wage condition is satisfied by you getting paid a car allowance. I think that that’s not considered wages for JobKeeper. Someone from Employsure, scream out if I’ve got that wrong, please, in response to Tony, but we’ll double check that for you.

    But if you have a contractual car allowance, you should get it whilst you’re employed. The only possible change to that is if you are stood down and otherwise just getting JobKeeper, then depending on the terms of your contractual car allowance you may not be entitled to that when you are stood down. So, not a simple answer, unfortunately, to that one, Tony.

    But the short answer is if you’re working, and you’re getting paid, you should get your salary for what you’re working, even if that’s then subsequently covered to the employer by JobKeeper. Your car allowance, right, it sounds that it’s not your salary, so it should be separate to that. If you’re not working, you’ve been stood down, if you’re on JobKeeper, you still got to get the wage condition satisfied, but it may be that your car allowance doesn’t carry through if you’ve been stood down. It depends on the contract.

    Dylan says, “Redundancies are on the cards for us, and some will be over 35. I’m now worried about the second with this older worker thing. Am I still okay to go ahead?” In principle, there’s no reason you can’t carry on with redundancies, Dylan. The over 35 thing really relates to this idea that you would be doing redundancies, a sort of sham redundancy, I suppose, in order to re-employ younger people who are being subsidized. So if you’re doing that, I’d say put your brakes on. Let’s talk about whether these are real redundancies or not.

    But assuming you’ve got real redundancy situations, you’re going through the correct processes, nothing has happened to change the law to suggest that you suddenly can’t do that for people over 35. Just be very careful not to manufacture schemes. It means you’re trying to get rid of one group of people just to get other people in, because they’re conceptually cheaper because of the JobMaker subsidy.

    Michael says, “I’ve got an avid COVID hoaxer on my staff but another who’s super health conscious and trying to get us to abide by all of the rules. I’m worried about potential conflict and tension as we spend more time in the workplace. Any advice on tackling this?” Really, I wonder what makes a COVID hoaxer. Is the hoaxer on this sort of constantly sort of coughing and spluttering in order to wind other people out there? You saw all these awful situations at the start of the crisis where people were coughing in the face of public transport drivers and things like that, and you were getting arrested and fined for that. That seems to have gone away.

    So the way in which I would suggest dealing with this is that you’ve got to operate not to your standard as to what you think is the right thing to do on how people should behave at work with regards to the COVID safe rules. But almost to the lowest common denominator, so what the most conscious person might do.

    So to give you an idea of that, this problem that occurred in Auckland yesterday. Apparently, what happened was a staff member rang their manager and said, “I’m not feeling very well.” And the manager said, “Come in anyway,” rather than saying, you know, not in normal circumstances, someone not feeling very well might result in them coming into work. Indeed, we’re not in normal circumstances. You’ve got to sort of heighten your level of sensitivity and say to that person, “Stay at home.”

    So in practice, what that means to you is having a very clear COVID safe plan, making sure it’s communicated to all of your staff, and then consequently adhered to. So don’t cut any corners on that, within some level of reasonableness. You know, for example, encouraging people to sanitize regularly, making sure the social distancing is adhered to in the workplace. You might encourage people to wear masks, depending on the nature of their job. All of these things that you would put into your COVID safe plan, and make sure that that is published and communicated clearly. Because the person that you are setting up your plan to operate to is the super health conscious one.

    As to the COVID hoaxer, I’d just be making sure that whatever that is, if it is someone trying to stir up problems, that you’re stamping it out quickly and even going through disciplinary issues if the person is really trying to agitate problems and so forth.

    Tammy says, “With everything that’s happened in Canberra this week, is an employer allowed to outright ban intimate relationships between employees? Does this infringe on their privacy and personal life?” Really interesting question, Tammy. This is such a topical and I think polarizing debate. On the one side of it, you’d say, “How dare you? I can have a personal relationship, and it’s up to me as an adult to make sure I don’t bring that into work.” On the other side of the debate, you’d say, “Yes, but these are highly complex areas, particularly where you have imbalances in seniority in people, and it’s rife for problems.”

    So I’ll tell you what we do at Employsure, which I think is a happy medium between the two. So we don’t have an outright ban on relationships. What we do have is a requirement that if people enter into relationships at work that we’re made aware even on a private and confidential basis into our talent HR team so that we can assess any potential conflicts of interest.

    So, for example, you know, you wouldn’t want a situation where a manager is seeing a subordinate, but that manager has responsibility for choosing that person’s pay and things like that. That’s rife with problems and potential discrimination claims. So we make it a requirement through our employee handbook to make disclosure of that through confidential channels, you know, if you don’t wanna put up on the pin board that you’re having a relationship. And then we would provide training and guidance to the people in that relationship or maybe even move around reporting lines to avoid any potential conflicts like that. So that’s one way of doing it.

    Outright bans are a potential way of doing it. It is problematic, though, as you say, because, you know, there’s technically no reason you can’t have an outright ban other than that you might find that people are just…if you have a very authoritarian rule like that, that people might be less inclined to work with you. I’m just trying to think if there are any potential discrimination issues that might flow from having an outright ban. I don’t think there are. I mean, you could potentially do it. It’s pretty authoritarian and probably quite reflective of the culture that, like, say, might result in people not wanting to work there.

    Whatever you do, be very careful with stuff that looks and sort of smells a bit gender-specific when you…I always remember, there was that David Jones case years ago. And then I think the same sort of thing happened at Channel 7, where a junior employee, who was female started seeing a male employee who’s senior. And their relationship broke down, and then it ends up kind of the female started getting squeezed out of the business. You know, that’s rife with discrimination issues, where there seems to be a tendency to look after the more senior person who happens to be a male in those circumstances and then so forth. So be very, very careful around situations like that.

    Sharon. “If a permanent part-time employee under an award takes sick leave for two days, can the employer ask for a sick certificate, and does this need to be written into their contract?” Absolutely, you can. I’d recommend putting it in a policy. So we have, at Employsure, I’ve [inaudible 00:34:56] for years, is whether this is the right thing to do. But even on one day, we ask people to provide certification. And the reason [inaudible 00:35:04] is that it feels a bit like we don’t trust people in that regard.

    But in essence, what we said is, look, we’re just gonna set the bar at its lowest level, and everyone has to follow it, and that’s just the way we’re gonna operate rather than having this situation where we raise the bar and then find that in any way it gets abused and it ends up inhibiting trust. So I don’t know I’ve made the right decision there, but that’s just a decision we made from day one. But you can certainly do it for two days. And I’d recommend having that in a handbook. Just double check whatever the relevant award is to see if there’s any provisions around that in there.

    Wayne. Good to hear from you, from Camp Goodenough. Ed and Duke. Duke is here. He’s asleep under my desk, and also have littered around me a whole roll of chewed toilet roll, as you can see. So I’m at that stage with Duke at the moment. That wasn’t me, by the way. That was Duke that did that. “Please advise. We have our first school camp returning this week, 20th…eight months with no income. Confidence is rising to be able to get back to what we love doing.”

    Great news, Wayne. You’ve been a long-term supporter of me in this livestream, so thank you for continuing to do that. Pleased to advise that you’re getting going. I’m pleased to hear it, really pleased with that. Great stuff, Wayne.

    Jill on behalf of a friend Joe. “Joe just got a new job, but the incumbent is refusing to leave the office and keeps threatening legal action.” Joe has just got a new job, but the incumbent is refusing to leave the office. I mean, that’s fundamentally, it’s not Joe’s problem. It’s Joe’s employer that needs to deal with that. I’m not sure what’s happened with the ex-employee. It sounds like they were meant to have been sacked, but they’re not going, but that’s a problem for…Lee says, “Yeah, very funny.” Sorry, Jill. You’ve got me. A beauty. It’s a U.S. election joke. Yes, very good. Very good. I feel silly now. Well done, Jill.

    Jill’s had a client, let’s see if I can…she says, “Many thanks, Ed, for continuing your livestreams for all of us here trying to make sense of the world. Have a great weekend.” Thanks, Jill. I will go away and lick my wounds at not having picked up the U.S. election joke. And I appreciate the humor, Jill.

    Have a good weekend, guys. I shall see you next week. Feel free to reach out to me and ask any questions that you have. Remember, our small business circle is there. I chip into that as well just to answer any questions on there, if you do wanna join up. Go and grab the e-guide if you’re worried about what might be happening with minimum wages for you.

    Oh, one more question. Craig. “What’s Employsure’s recommendation for those with long-term systematic casuals given the high court case? What about those who preferred to stay casual and declined permanency?” So, Craig, my recommendation is this has to be transparent in your advice to communication to any casuals that you have that might be affected by that in your business to say that you are waiting for the high court outcome. And at this time, that you’re not going to be providing any benefits or back pay even in relation to that outcome.

    You need to see what happens in the case. And essentially, put a go on pause, carry on treating them as though they are casuals, paying them in accordance with their casual rates without providing them with things like annual leave or paid sick leave and so forth at this time. And the same thing goes as to those who want to stay casual and declined permanency. I think we’ll get some clarity out of the case around that. And we’ll have to see what happens in the case. So watch this space for now, Craig.

    Thank you very much, everyone. See you next week.

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